B2B Struggles come from business and to business. Should we persevere against the voices that demand change, or our own inclination to remain the same? In this episode, we continue the story of Gregory Burns, as he discovers the seed of his own motivation. Would not having the use of legs limit his ambition? And are we imposing unnecessary disabilities on our own performance? We speak with The Sasha Group President and VaynerMedia Veteran James Orsini along with Global Growth Marketing Director at ReachDesk, Amber Bogie, on how perseverance relates specifically to market initiatives.
[00:00:00] Hiromi: Is the source of our struggle internal or external? Should we persevere against the voices that demand change, or our own inclination to remain the same? In this episode, we continue the story of Gregory Burns, as he discovers the seed of his own motivation. Would not having the use of legs limit his ambition? And are we imposing unnecessary disabilities on our own performance? This is a podcast about B2B marketing and the account-based mindset. This is Reach.
[00:00:43] Well, thanks for joining us today. My name is Hiromi and I'm here with CEO and agency founder Jaycen Thorgeirson.
[00:00:48] Jaycen: Hello everyone.
[00:00:50] Hiromi: And Chief Creative Officer Garret Krynski.
[00:00:52] Garret: Happy to be here.
[00:00:56] Hiromi: So we've been talking at some length about this quality of perseverance, and we've heard from authors and professors about the quality itself. But we thought we'd reach out to a few marketers for their take on what the quality means to them. Uh, I reached out to Tom Wilson, who is an account exec. And Tom worked with me at my first ad agency job. So aside from having perseverance in working with me, this is what he said about the need for perseverance in his role.
[00:01:22] Tom Wilson: Especially in business development, you really have to believe in your creative folks, and everybody else at the agency, to be able to get the job done. I'm not gonna try to sugarcoat this. I did get a lot of rejections. But I think what I learned, both at my failing years and at the start of my [inaudible 00:01:38] years is, you have to keep on going, uh, you have to meet the challenge, and you have to be thick-skinned. And I can take a lot of rejection and still bounce up when I've got the support back at the agency to be able to deliver a good product for the client.
[00:01:51] Hiromi: So I thought that was a nice perspective. I- I don't know why, but I hadn't really thought about how vulnerable it could feel to have the persistence, selling a service that you yourself have no immediate control over.
[00:02:03] Jaycen: Yeah.
[00:02:03] Hiromi: There's an element of faith there and trust in your team that's- that's obviously necessary. And that interdependency within a team is something that our project manager Tracie Berger commented on when we asked her why project managers need perseverance.
[00:02:19] Tracie Berger: As a project manager, you have to deal with a lot of different personalities. You have to be open-minded enough, both as an internal creative team and an agency, and with the client. You just constantly have to be able to pivot in another direction. I don't think you can be a project manager and not have perseverance in your skillset. Nothing will get accomplished.
[00:02:44] Hiromi: [laughs] So this quality of perseverance is obviously necessary across a wide range of roles and experiences. And I think what we discovered in our last episode is that a diversity of experience is a direct result of this kind of mindset. Despite not having the use of legs, Gregory Burns has already gone from competitive swimming to art studies in Asia and world traveling. In fact, we resume his story as he sails across the Pacific with a group of Danish educators, shooting documentaries. This is more than most of us experience in a lifetime. But Gregory Burns was just getting started.
[00:03:23] Gregory Burns: So from New Zealand, the boat sailed to Palau in the Philippines. But before the boat got there, I was watching the Gulf War one unfold on CNN.
[00:03:33] Doug James: [inaudible 00:03:34] stay in their homes. This is Doug James, reporting live for CNN [inaudible 00:03:37]
[00:03:37] Gregory Burns: And I'm not a hawk. I don't believe in war. But in 1991 I was watching this war happen and for better or for worse, it was the first time I really felt nationalistic. I wanted to see what could I possibly do as Gregory Burns, to help America. Bing, I could swim in the 1992 Barcelona Paralympics and represent my country. So this is '91. I'm on a boat in the middle of the South Pacific. A few months later, we're in Hong Kong and I leave the boat. Suddenly, I'm in Hong Kong and I needed to get sponsored, because the US Olympic Committee wasn't paying for us at that time. I needed to find sponsorship to represent my country.
[00:04:14] So I canvased all of American MNCs, multinationals in Hong Kong. And a few companies ponied up. And the first one was KFC. So I ended up getting the money. I started training for the Paralympics. A lot of amazing things happened. And I went and swam in the Barcelona Paralympics. I- I got one world record and a silver and a bronze. And after I swam, I held this big [inaudible 00:04:36] chicken leg up with my medals, smiling. Click, took a picture and then took the photos back to KFC. And the guy said, "Thanks for the photo." And he said, "Do you have a suit, like a suit and tie?" I said, "Yeah." He said- I said, "Why?" He said, "Well, can you come back on Monday and meet the president?" So I came back on Monday. Long story short is, they offered me a job managing internal and external corporate communications for KFC Asia Pacific, which was Japan to India, two and a half-billion-dollar business.
[00:05:04] And the question was, so what happened? What switched? He I was in 1992, swimming faster as a 38-year-old than as an 18-year-old. What happened? I had the two full-time jobs and I was training for the Paralympics. So it wasn't an ideal training situation. But I think what had happened was, I was focused. Get up, go swim. Go to work. Go to the gym. Eat lunch, go to work. Go swim. [inaudible 00:05:29]
[00:05:29] So I had this training schedule that wasn't ideal, but I- I really learned discipline I think and how to focus and that really was when the switch went on. And then the switch followed me through the next three Paralympics. Atlanta '96 was my better year. I had three world records and some golds and silvers. So I was winning some records, getting some medals, getting some recognition, getting some sponsorship. In fact, to this day I still hold five national swimming records in American swimming.
[00:05:58] But later I think what started happening was I started to compete against able-bodied people as well. In fact, the first big thing I ever did was in summer of '84. I- I ran the Honolulu Marathon and crutches. I got my bib number and everything. I went to Hawaii and I- I didn't have enough money for a hotel, so I slept in the park next to the starting line. And 6:00 AM, bam, the gun goes off and everybody is running and running. And 8:00 AM, the fastest runners are- are finished and at 10:00 AM, most everybody is finished. By 12:00, they had actually taken down the finish line and Waikiki went back to being Waikiki. And- and I was still out running. And I didn't know any of this, 'cause I was out somewhere in- in Haleiwa or somewhere out there. You know? And yeah, I'm running along, running along, and- and I had my number on, so I- I knew what I was I doing.
[00:06:43] And people would drive by and say, "What are you doing?" I said, "I got my number. I'm running a marathon." They, "Oh, that's cool." And they'd drive back home. And then they'd come back and they'd give me a- a bologna sandwich or a 7-Up or something. And people kept you know, asking me all day, "What are you doing? What you you doing?" And finally around 6:00, this black van drives up. And I thought it was the KGB or something. And the doors up and out jumps this film crew. And thew start filming me and interviewing. "So Mr. Burns, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? What ..."
[00:07:08] I just talked and I going. And- and then they disappeared. And about 9:00 at night, I see this bunches of people as I'm running back towards the finish line. There are all these people yelling and screaming, going, go, go, go. And- and- and by the time I got to the finish line, the finish line had been brought back. And there were like, a hundred people waiting and cheering me on. So I got my T-shirt, my finishers T-shirt. I came in dead last. I- I did it in 16 hours. That was the first thing I really did against able bodies people. And that's really where I realized, listen, I'm not gonna win this. I'm here to complete, not compete. And to complete it is a win. In 2006 I was offered a spot in the Korean, Jeju Island, uh, Ironman. And I had never done an Ironman before.
[00:07:55] Speaker 9: The distance is daunting. It will push you physically, mentally, and emotionally to limits never before achieved.
[00:08:04] Gregory Burns: An Ironman is a 3.8 kilometer swim, 180 kilometer bike and 42 kilometer run. For me, it was a big lift.
[00:08:11] It's kind of ridiculous, given the scenario, given the uh, the bike part. It's 180 kilometers and I have to average 20 kilometers an hour for nine hours, which for someone on an able bodied bike is something probably you could do in a heartbeat. But um, I'm, mine's a hand powered bike and it's all upper body. And I'm pulling myself up these hills. I go really well downhill, but going up I- I get real slow. I didn't have a racing wheelchair. I didn't have a racing bike. I knew I could do the swim. So I trained for it, uh, and I did it.
[00:08:44] Speaker 9: The finish line is a place to let it all go. Gregory Burns, polio at the age of one would not slow him down. A man that sets a goal and goes out and accomplishes it. Gregory Burns, an Ironman at the age of 48.
[00:09:01] Gregory Burns: And that was kind of like, [laughs] okay, that's good, congratulations Greg. Yep, thank you, thank you.
[00:09:16] Garret: I think this idea of complete, not compete was very interesting. His whole story about, uh, the Honolulu Marathon. In- in the first two hours, the- the professionals were finishing the marathon and 14 hours later, he's still going at it. The news team comes out and then they reset up the finish line, and he's just got to get it done. That's part of the learning mindset. This achievement and accomplishment is in the completion.
[00:09:41] Hiromi: I really love this part of the story. I ... it was certainly inspiring. I am struggling a little bit to make a professional application though. I- I- I feel like that's not often the message in- industry, complete, not compete. Aren't we always being held to a higher benchmark, trying to become more efficient, deliver more faster?
[00:10:02] Garret: Well-
[00:10:02] Hiromi: You know what I mean?
[00:10:03] Garret: So, in some cases right, there's viral things that happen overnight, which maybe has spoiled everyone to what success looks like in marketing. But in many cases, especially account based marketing, it says on ITSMA website, "ABM is a long-term strategy." Gary Vaynerchuk says, "There is no rush, be patient." Neil Patel, uh, "long-term commitment to content marketing." Right? So it's about being committed to the long-term, just like Gregory was to [laughs] you know, he knew-
[00:10:30] Hiromi: [inaudible 00:10:31]
[00:10:30] Garret: ... he wasn't going to to complete it in two hours. There was no success at the two hour mark. But just being in it for the long haul and finishing, and then seeing what you learned and carrying that forward ...
[00:10:43] Jaycen: It's like, it's not that there's not important metrics, or that metrics don't matter, or return on investment doesn't matter.
[00:10:51] Garret: Right.
[00:10:51] Jaycen: All these things still matter, regardless of whatever marketing approach that we- we employ. But, I think what Garret is saying about account based marketing and B2B marketing, we're focused on developing deeper relationships, developing better conversations, gaining greater situational awareness about their unique circumstances as a business. So we don't think about it just purely in terms of metrics. The completion of it is really about, Have we done our job to increase our reputation, to enhance our relationship, to get to maybe influencing outcomes like pipeline, opportunities and revenue? Those are the things, right?
[00:11:35] Garret: Gregory said the pain of letting himself down was greater than the relief of quitting. And so what he's talking about there is short-term, long-term. There's lots of short-term gratification in marketing too. You might approach an account for instance, who is not in market. They had signed with an incumbent, uh, a competitor and- and they won't be in market for years. But can you start a relationship? Can you continue to demonstrate value?
[00:12:02] Angela Duckworth, she talked about sticking to something, in her words, "For a very long time." So grit is not just momentary, perseverance is not just momentary. In marketing, it's a million little moments that make up this one long journey toward completing something.
[00:12:20] Jaycen: And I think through Gregory's story, this passion to be a lifelong learner-
[00:12:27] Garret: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:28] Jaycen: ... not be fixed in how we think about things, benefits an account based marketer because they're always learning. They're passionate about the customer and they're passionate about trying to figure out, How do improve in my discipline? How do I improve in my attitude? How do I improve in my techniques, to make these things happen?
[00:12:48] Garret: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:48] Hiromi: Yeah, those are questions we should probably all be asking ourselves. You know we uh, we reached out to Amber Bogie. She's currently Director of Demand Generation at Reachdesk, because she was to inspire teams of people to ask those same questions every day. And- and we asked her you know, what does perseverance mean to you?
[00:13:05] Amber Bogie: I think perseverance to me really means commitment, continued work and effort, achieving a goal, no matter how challenging the journey is to get there. I think that it's certainly a personal definitely to each and every person. For me, I just tell myself there's no other option. You just do.
[00:13:27] Jaycen: Yeah, there's something to being committed, and that- that determination. Have you seen maybe in the marketing role where this comes up a lot, where it requires you to persevere?
[00:13:39] Amber Bogie: I honestly think that it's a daily thing for marketers. One think that I'm going on and on about all the time when it comes to account based marketing is sales enablement and metrics. And sale enablement is a challenge. And no matter how long you've been at a company, there's always going to be a new salesperson. There's always going to be a new product. There's always going to be something You need to continue to educate on. And that in itself takes perseverance. And the same thing with reporting. We're always iterating and improving. There's always a new software, analytics. We've invented something new. We now must figure out. That's an exhausting thing for marketers, for operations, for anyone that's dealing with numbers. So that in itself I say like, it's perseverance across the board.
[00:14:21] Jaycen: Yeah. What are some of the challenges to displaying this mindset, when the outcomes aren't necessarily tied to quick metrics?
[00:14:30] Amber Bogie: I guess I would have to say that it's a failure of some businesses to cast aside the strategy because they don't see the results soon enough. I think the perfect kind of way to almost look at account based marketing is it's an investment. Just like when you invest in the stock market or in a house, it takes time to grow the equity, to grow that financial reward. It's important to pay attention to what you're doing. But those big whale accounts are not getting closed two weeks after you kick off an ABM strategy. I mean, most sale cycles in B2B software go up- up to a year, sometimes further.
[00:15:10] Jaycen: Yeah, totally. Has there been any advice that you've gotten along the way that you'd like to pass on to others that can help marketers to continue to persevere?
[00:15:20] Amber Bogie: I think the biggest game changer for me has been community. But I think the second thing would be willingness to share, because it takes vulnerability to oftentimes open up and find those connections. And the people that you think are think most successful and the greatest of the great, that you admire in your career, they have failures. They have mistake. And it's shocking when you find out about it, because you put them up on a pedestal. But it is the best feeling ever because we're all humanized. And for us to continue to build this, I encourage everyone to be vulnerable.
[00:16:02] Jaycen: Yeah, I love that. You know, a buzzword for a long time was authenticity.
[00:16:07] Amber Bogie: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:08] Jaycen: But I think this idea of vulnerability is even more powerful because it- it kind of let's people into a deeper level.
[00:16:16] Amber Bogie: Actually, just to my right I have Post-its from like six, seven different people over like a 10 year span of my life, things that they said to me, that were moving and powerful. Some of them simple, some of them very deep. But those things stick and when I felt like giving up or like I'm not great, or whatever it is that one day, I get to remember those things, because we are not the greatest at seeing outside of ourselves.
[00:16:49] Hiromi: You know it- it was great talking with Amber. I- I think a part of her message about vulnerability was that if we want to effectively master some of these mindsets like perseverance, we're gonna need to adapt them holistically into our character, in and outside our professional lives. And they're going to need to affect our attitudes privately as well, which can feel a little vulnerable.
[00:17:11] Garret: Yeah. I found an interesting quote in a LinkedIn article by Dev Basu. He grew a digital marketing agency and he says, "Persistence is a skill, whereas perseverance is a virtue." And [inaudible 00:17:24] and I thought that was interesting. He made that distinction, that it- it becomes a little bit greater than- than just persisting, this idea of perseverance.
[00:17:33] Hiromi: Yeah, I think that's a really good breakdown. And it's probably a good segue into our next guest, because earlier I think you quoted from Gary Vaynerchuk. And we had the opportunity to speak with the president of Gary V's marketing company Sasha Group, about the deep roots that perseverance has in their culture.
[00:17:48] Jaycen: James, just introduce yourself, like your name and maybe a little bit about your background.
[00:17:52] James Orsini: Yeah, great. Uh, my name is James Orsini. I'm the president of the Sash Group, which is one of Gary Vaynerchuk's VaynerX companies. I was formerly his Chief Operating Officer of VaynerMedia before taking on this role. I've spent uh, the better part of the last uh, 30 years in marketing and advertising.
[00:18:13] Jaycen: That's awesome. So as we're exploring this quality of perseverance, and obviously you've had a long career, looking back, what role has- has this quality played through [inaudible 00:18:25]-
[00:18:24] James Orsini: Yeah, yeah, well I can speak to it for myself. I mean when I got to VaynerMedia, which on day one was really a social media advertising company, and there I was. I stepped in the door at 52 years old and I'm surrounded by 500 millennials. And um, I really didn't know much about social media. You know? I had general marketing, advertising, I had mobile, I had branding, I had public relations. But this was now the next territory to be conquered by me. And I uh, really had to have some perseverance to want to learn more. Right? So- so you know, I'm certain that's what attracted me, uh, to Gary in some way, shape or form.
[00:19:04] There was an article written by Mobile Marketer Magazine, and- and the headline was What Makes James Orsini Leave His Comfortable Perch at at Saatchi and Saatchi? You know I was, I was comfortable. But sometimes you gotta stretch yourself beyond your comfortable perch to be able to learn more.
[00:19:20] Jaycen: Yeah, that's interesting.
[00:19:21] Hiromi: So you're talking about stretching yourself. Do you generally suggest that people persevere in always striving for the impossible and believing in limitless potential? Or do you advocate to like know your strengths and set realistic goals that you can believe in? Uh-
[00:19:38] James Orsini: Yeah, I'm a big-
[00:19:38] Hiromi: ... does that question make sense?
[00:19:39] James Orsini: ... advocate, as is Gary, of self awareness. You know what I mean? He often uses the example, if you're five foot four, you could persevere all you'd like, but you're probably not gonna make it to the NBA. You know what I mean? Despite your love of basketball and despite your-
[00:19:54] Jaycen: [laughs]
[00:19:54] James Orsini: ... willingness to do it. So I think self awareness is- is really important. At the Sasha Group, obviously we work with entrepreneurs and founders and everything. And we tell them to surround themselves with people, not who are just like them, but rather, if they have a weakness, this guy plays to their strength. And even personally you know, I was the CEO of a publicly traded company. There's not many people who can do that. But I know what I don't want to do ever again, and that is to be a CEO of a publicly traded company. You know, I've been a great- great number two. You know?
[00:20:24] Hiromi: [laughs]
[00:20:24] James Orsini: And uh, I've been a number two to a lot of number ones. And- and they've been successful. And as a result, I've been successful in kind of being caught up in their wake. Uh, so this is kind of who I am. You know, I'm cool with this.
[00:20:36] Hiromi: That's really interesting. I- you know, you- you've made me think about that in a new way. I think a lot of people think of perseverance as something that they're muscling against external influences, that they need to persevere against people telling them what they can't do or whatever. Sometimes perseverance, if I'm hearing you right, is us persevering against our own inclinations, our own maybe desires to be something that we shouldn't be.
[00:21:00] James Orsini: Yeah.
[00:21:00] Hiromi: And being willing and humble enough to accept ourselves for who we really are.
[00:21:04] James Orsini: Exactly, I mean and it- it was a search. You know I've- I've come to that now obviously, uh, with a 35 career. I've come to that. Uh, early on I was searching for what is that-
[00:21:15] Hiromi: Yeah.
[00:21:16] James Orsini: So in the '80s I was a New York state CPA. And you talk about perseverance, I wanted to get to Wall Street. And every recruiter is like, "James, you went to a non Ivy League school. You're the son of a plumber from Newark, New Jersey." Okay? I couldn't change that. But what I did know is that my strength was if I got in front of people, because I grew up in a house where I was the youngest, I knew how to play up. And I'll never forget the interview question was, "So- so if you were in a brick wall James, and I told you, you had to get to the other side, what would you say to me?" Uh, and I said, "Where would you like the wall moved to sir?" And he's like, "That question got you hired." So leaning in on what it is that you know you're good with. You know what I mean? And not paying too much attention to the stuff that you're weak at.
[00:22:16] Hiromi: If you're interested in reading the full interview with James or Amber, visit our LinkedIn page or our site reachabm.com. You should definitely check it out 'cause James had a lot of great insights.
[00:22:25] Jaycen: His approach to obstacles and his thinking on it was unique. And I think changing our perspective on things can help us see how to overcome challenges.
[00:22:37] Hiromi: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:38] Garret: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:38] Jaycen: And that goes back to this idea of being passionate about learning.
[00:22:42] Garret: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:42] Jaycen: Are we fixed in how we see things? Or can we be challenged to see them from another angle? And I thought that was telling as to how he approaches things and perhaps has led to the success and the duration of his career.
[00:22:58] Garret: I thought that part about being the 52 year old guy who's entering the millennial world and this idea of reinventing yourself and being humble and learning and stretching, it was really kind of telling about the type of person he was. Like, who at, you know, when they're a decade and a half from retirement age, is gonna just completely blow it up, do something they're not comfortable with? I thought that was kind of inspirational.
[00:23:25] Hiromi: Yeah, and I think that's another corelation between James' mindset and Gregory's too. Right? Because again, we have to stretch to put them into a box. You know, what are you? Are you an accountant? Are you-
[00:23:36] Garret: Yeah.
[00:23:36] Hiromi: ... uh, a CEO? Are you a marketer? [laughs] What are you? And as he approached new challenges, it's clear that he had this, "Where do you want this wall moved to," mentality, just like Gregory with the KFC opportunity. Maybe felt under qualified but he just said, "Where do you want this wall moved to sir?"
[00:23:54] Garret: I think too with James, he seems to be a very self aware person. He talks about Gary Vaynerchuk as being a proponent of self awareness. Gregory Burns, very self aware. And so it's like to me as a learning personally, can I be objective about myself and be honest about myself? You know, we've come to this in- in many of these mindsets, it takes some humility in some cases to stretch and put himself in that position, be a little uncomfortable, be self aware, and find some success.
[00:24:27] Jaycen: I think that's where having that growth mindset tends to mean that you are more self aware. Right? You're also a learner, which a learner tends to be someone that's humble. Right?
[00:24:42] Hiromi: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:43] Jaycen: You have a greater purpose or passion. And that allows you to stay in something, despite challenges and hardships.
[00:24:53] Garret: Right, and- and outcome for someone else, versus outcome for yourself is- is an interesting kind of concept. Like we're talking about learning here, which is definitely self fulfilling. But is there a purpose around your learning? Like I think about Gregory, where he's helping other people now.
[00:25:12] Hiromi: That's what we want to explore further in our next episode. How can you spread this quality of perseverance in your own community? We'll speak with Bobby Herrera, CEO of Populus Group and the author of The Gift of Struggle, about how good leaders can inspire others to persevere.
[00:25:29] Bobby Herrera: Our responsibility to help people through their struggle so that they can persevere is to edit and simplify their life. More often than not, you're either ratcheting up accountability, or you're putting more on their plate. And the last thing they need is more.
[00:25:44] Hiromi: We're also speaking with agency owner and bestselling author Stu Heinecke about how we can learn about perseverance from weeds in nature.
[00:25:52] Stu Heinecke: We're all familiar with dandelions. And they're tough, because there are hundreds of them out there, and each one produces up to 15,000 seeds per plant. That's not going away really easily. And what a great demonstration of the power of collective scale.
[00:26:05] Hiromi: Where did the road less traveled lead Gregory Burns and how does the mindset of perseverance translate into real, tangible action? All this in the final part of this series, next time on Reach.
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